... but why doesn't the world see it?Yes, I am an atheist. God does not exist. God doesn't explain anything. And if there is a deity that created the entire galaxy, life, miracles and he can read all of our minds at the same time, I bet he wouldn't be very proud of all the complaining he hears.
So wear your heretic badge proudly and convince the people that religion should be abolished.
PS. Yes, this is the place to discuss religion.
26 comments:
Just out of curiosity... why don't you believe in an all-powerful being?
I know why I do, but I'm interested in what happened to cause you not to. :)
Ah, a big one.
First, because it is absolutely ridiculous to believe in an omniscient and omnipotent yet unknowable force, by whatever name, that takes an interest in petty human affairs.
Secondly, because such an allpowerful being would care less about being believed in.
Thirdly, religion is bad.
Fourth, I'm still waiting for believers to prove the existence of their respective deity.
And you? :D
As you probably know (since I've mentioned it a few times now), I really love science. It is a passion of mine. Therefore, I believe that most things can be explained by science and/or math.
There are unexplainable phenomenon, however, that science can't begin to explain. I don't care how advanced we end up becoming.
When my grandmother died (my mom's mom), my mom was grieving horribly and truly having a difficult time dealing with her death. Once we got home from Indiana (where Grandma lived) and tried to start settling things, etc, I found myself one night in the middle of the night at the end of my mom's bed. Apparently, I sleep-walked (I guess) from my bed to hers and was curled up in a ball at the foot of her bed. I woke up suddenly and realized where I was and attempted to get up to go back to bed. I couldn't. Physically, I couldn't. It literally felt as though a gigantic hand was holding me down for several minutes. It completely freaked me out, but not to the point of hysteria or anything stupid like that. Then, all of a sudden, I was able to get up and just at that moment my mom started talking (in her sleep, it turned out) and was calling for her mom. I comforted her and let her know that Grandma wasn't with us anymore. She then started asking if I was her sister, Shirley (who had died when mom was about 19 or so), and I let her know that I wasn't, but that I was there for her. She eventually calmed down and turned over to a silent sleep and I went on to bed, but that experience has stayed with me ever since. That was 23 years ago tomorrow. I don't care how anyone looks at it, that can't be explained in any other way but something (or someone) interferring. There is no scientific explanation for it.
Something similar happened to my grandmother a few years before that had to do with my deceased grandfather.
Unexplained phenomenon are truly powerful.
I don't go to church regularly anymore; maybe once or twice a year, but I definitely believe that there is a higher power and that, although our lives are not dealt with on a daily basis by said being, a watchful eye is out and makes its presence known from time to time.
I agree that religion is bad in many ways. It's why most wars have started or at least continued. Most of the big wars have been because of the Muslim religion.
I also believe that there is just one God. Each religion simply decides how to worship and interpret God's law and word. That's partially why I don't usually go to church anymore. I can talk to God without kneeling at an altar and tything my money to a church that continually interprets and reinterprets God's word anyway for their own selfish purposes.
So, there we are and I've taken up enough of your comment space, I think. ;)
I can see it made a big impression, and I'll try not to diminish your experience.
However, the fact that some things are unexplained, doesn't mean they can't or won't. And the logic of explaining such things by automatically referring to a god is fuzzy at best. Why must all unexplained phenomena be of god's making, rather than some law of nature we do not (yet) know?
And if we're talking about explaining the unexplained, will someone please tell me where this one god came from? Who made him/her/it?
Finally made my way over. Nice to see you, Fang. :)
Hansgirl, I find it interesting that you automatically assume that something had to happen to cause a disbelief in a higher power. I do not believe that religion is natural, any more so than a lack of religion or atheism, at any rate, but you seem to accept it as something everyone has, until they find a reason not to. I've never been religious, even as a very small child. When I was very young, I often thought of what would happen to me after I died, and even contemplated (not seriously, of course) taking my own life, in the name of discovery. My mother told me that there was a God, and a Heaven, even though she is not very religious herself, but I never bought into it.
It seems that quite a few of the 'believers' have a similar story, to tell, one that involves something that "Couldn't possibly be explained otherwise". I always find these tales to be complete and utter crap. I can do a really neat coin trick that looks just like magic...but really I'm palming the thing very well. Just because you can;t explain it, doesn't mean it can't be explained, and just because you want it to be God, doesn't mean it is.
I've had some really strange dreams lately, and I mean truly bizarre stuff. What is a dream? It's my brain, going all crazy-like. Hearing voices? Seeing angels? Paralyzation? Our brains can do all of these things and much, much more. The psychologist could tell you that.
The creation of religion has always intrigued me. Which was first? The very idea that there is more than one religion is enough to make me realize the whole system is flawed. People create new gods all the time. Some become popular enough to appear real. A common philospohical question is, "If everyone believes a thing, does that make it real?" In the case of religion or god, certainly yes. If innumerable amounts of people believe in a God, with no real evidence to the contrary (per their design), how can he not be real? Religion, and Christianity, mostly, takes its weakest parts and makes them its strongest points. Of course you can't see Him, then you wouldn't need Faith!
Faith! Faith! It's all about faith. Religion makes people proud of being led around blindly, like cattle. Cattle for the slaughter anyone?
I take the existential view of things, generally, as existentialism is very loose, fluid, and ill-defined. Mostly, it's about individuality and individual responsibility, thought, and experience. I experience this wolrd, and draw my conclusions from that experience. I don't buy into this religion, or this science, or what this guy says, or this guy-- I make my own decisions based on what I see, regardless of, and ignoring others' conclusions. It can be hard work, and burdensome, which is why I think that most people are happy with their gods.
Religion is a crutch.
(This really is great fun.)
I can see it made a big impression, and I'll try not to diminish your experience
Well, thanks. :) But, it wouldn't bother me if you did.
You see, if my experience (and others' like it) can be explained somehow someday, then fantastic! I would much prefer a real concrete explanation to phenomena than to have the belief that it just happened because of some strange brain activity or because of an unseen (and admittedly) unproven higher power.
will someone please tell me where this one god came from? Who made him/her/it?
Great questions. The first monotheistic religion was Judaism. They first began believing this because of the writings of Moses and the burning bush. Now, if there were any mumblings of monotheistic beliefs before that, I am unaware of it.
I find it interesting that you automatically assume that something had to happen to cause a disbelief in a higher power.
Interestingly, as I wrote that, it felt wrong to me. I should have reworded it and didn't. Apologies.
I think the reason I asked the question in that manner is because, traditionally as far as I know up until recent years, parents usually passed on their particular religion to their children and the children normally kept it going until "something" happened to cause them to deny said religion. I failed to think about the fact that we've entered a time when strong beliefs in religion have begun to falter and religion is not necessarily passed on as enthusiastically.
I know that I haven't done a good job in passing my beliefs on to Harold's kids.
We've all done a good job of bashing the necessessity of religion, but I would like to put out a point for it. In most cases (and I mean that not all religions do this), religion helps us to keep our moral compasses pointing North. The teachings of the apostles in Christianity and the word of Buddha, etc. help us to understand right from wrong and keep us down the straight and narrow should we be tempted to go off on the wrong track.
Now, I think I've made it pretty clear that I am no religious zealot or anything of the sort. I do know that my upbringing in the church helped me to be the "good" person that I am. I have an ultimate being to answer to if I really screw things up badly.
I can do a really neat coin trick that looks just like magic...but really I'm palming the thing very well.
That's completely different than an occurrence of the sort that I experienced. You're talking about illusion. What happened to me was not an illusion and I never was the sort to truly buy into all the old "miracles" that God supposedly made happen.
It's why what I experienced had such and impact on me. I, personally, couldn't find any way to explain it than to assume that it was "God stuff". Maybe it was my grandmother coming back to make sure my mother was taken care of. I don't know... I just don't know. Again, I say that if a real explanation ever presents itself, that would be awesome. I still think, though, that there are some things that can't be explaned. I hope I'm proven wrong. ;)
First things first: Welcome, Vicomte, to my humble blog. Glad you're here.
I've had some really strange dreams lately, and I mean truly bizarre stuff. What is a dream? It's my brain, going all crazy-like. Hearing voices? Seeing angels? Paralyzation? Our brains can do all of these things and much, much more. The psychologist could tell you that.
I've heard of an experiment where certain brain parts were stimulated, and the subject became utterly convinced there was a "presence" in the room (a stranger, or someone long deceased, depending on the person), where there objectively was none. And that's just one such experience. So yes, this psychologist can tell you that. :)
Faith! Faith! It's all about faith. Religion makes people proud of being led around blindly, like cattle.
As much as I agree with you, criticizing religion is not the same as criticizing belief in any sort of deity. What bothers me most is that people fall back on a "freedom of religion" thing to defend their crazy ideas, while every other crazy idea is ridiculed, heavily criticized, or labeled "insane".
I don't buy into this religion, or this science, or what this guy says, or this guy-- I make my own decisions based on what I see, regardless of, and ignoring others' conclusions.
This, at least in theory, is what science attempt to do. So why your dislike of science (as you claimed on the DED)?
I would much prefer a real concrete explanation to phenomena than to have the belief that it just happened because of some strange brain activity
You mean brain activity is no concrete explanation to you? I admit it does appear strange that something in your brain causes something seemingly completely unrelated, but it is the truth. Whether or not something in your brain caused you to remain at your mother's side, I do not know. Something inside you, unconsciously, could have brought and kept you there. After all, isn't that what sleep-walking is -- unconscious acting?
The first monotheistic religion was Judaism. They first began believing this because of the writings of Moses and the burning bush.
Not quite my point, but interesting enough. If you read the Old Testament part of Moses, you see god being extremely jealous of other gods and idolatry, which suggests this god was only one of many available.
However, my point was, where does this god come from? If he is the supposed creator of all, how was he created himself?
I failed to think about the fact that we've entered a time when strong beliefs in religion have begun to falter and religion is not necessarily passed on as enthusiastically.
This only works partially, since many religious people (of whatever religion) keep raising their offspring with whatever crazy ideas their holy texts tell them to believe. Israelis, Palestines, Northern Irish, Jehovah's Witnesses, to name a few.
In most cases (and I mean that not all religions do this), religion helps us to keep our moral compasses pointing North.
However, I dare say that it is not religion that does that. Have you read the really nasty bits in the Bible? The massacre (there is no other word for it) of the native people of the god-appointed holy land of the chosen people, for example? I do not believe religion itself is a good counselor for moral ethics.
I, personally, couldn't find any way to explain it than to assume that it was "God stuff".
And why would this "God stuff" be any better than the other possible explanations? It is not proven (nor disproven, to be honest) that god had anything to do with it.
This, at least in theory, is what science attempt to do. So why your dislike of science (as you claimed on the DED)?
It's the same reason I have a dislike of religion. Granted, I trust what science tells me a bit more than what religion tells me, generally.
I, like the majority of people, simply cannot understand many things science explains. I haven't put in the time, nor effort, to understand them. I therefore can only believe what others tell me about science, for the most part. In this sense, scientists are exactly the same as religious officials, Bishops, Pastors, Priests, Swamis, Buddhas, Lamas, and what have you. Taking what a scientist says as fact, due to his supposed evidence, is the same as taking what the priest says as fact, due to his evidence.
I suppose I could do experiemnts myself, but I would never be able to accrue the knowledge necessary to do all of them required to have first-hand knowledge of everything. I will never be able to get past that the majority of what I know I know, I know only because someone else told me it is so. Sure, some things scientific I can learn for myself, or see, or otherwise prove to be true based on my own experience, but mostly I just take things on faith. Black holes? Sure. Atoms? Sure. Evolution? Sure. I believe these things exist because I am told so by the science-folk, not because I have declared they exist. We all know quite a bit about atomic theory, but does any of us really, really understand how it all works? It takes quite a bit of faith to believe in atomic theory, but we have been conditioned, tricked, even, into believing that it has been proven to us through the use of experimentation, trial and error, and other empirical evidence.
I believe in Atomic Theory, I really do. I ahve to ask myself why, however. Mostly because of books, teachers, people, that Have expalined it to me. That doesn't mean it is right, or even that these books, teachers, and people weren't lying to me. Conspiracy? Oh, yes! It seems outlandish because we are conditioned for it to seem outlandish, but why couldn't some govenment be controlling us to the point of making up Atomic Theory? Keep in mind that this seems completely ridiculous to me, which makes me wonder, why does it seem so ridiculous?
It's difficult to explain, hopefully that was somewhat coherent. ;)
I understand your concern, and I can only praise you for it.
Yes, science does rely on the goodwill and honesty of its practitioners, and that could be its flaw. However, a conspiracy? I don't believe that. :)
Knowing a bit of science, myself (psychology is a particular piece of it, both standing firmly in hard science and standing, at least partially, somewhat outside), has made me, first and foremost, critical of anyone claiming to have found the, or a, truth. Truth is, for the most part, unknowable and therefore science has the purpose, not to prove, but to disprove. Even its own theories.
I think we agree that the methods of science are admirable, but the practical implications might not be.
I think we agree that the methods of science are admirable, but the practical implications might not be.
Intentions and methods are always admirable and noble. Practicality and real-world application ruins this completely. Reality corrupts. (That should be a bumper sticker, if we had cars ;) )
I've talked on this with Ami quite a bit, but I believe I have discovered a small bit of truth, absolute, even. I have yet to disprove it, or have it disproven for me, mayhaps someone here can have a shot.
Everyone thinks they are better than everyone else.
Everyone, meaning, of course, every individual person, thinks they are better than everyone (individuals and groups) else. I think I'm better than everyone, you think it, Hansgirl, you think it, George Lucas thinks it, everyone.
Of course, many people will claim to not think they are better than everyone else, but they are simply doing so because it makes them feel superior, and therefore, better than everyone else. I usually prove this to such people by first telling them that I think I am far better than they are, prompting them to say that they don't feel they are better than me, or anyone else. I then point out what they were most likely thinking at the time, which, invariably, will be something like, "This asshole thinks he's better than me!" which is indignance based on the fact that someone else so obviously inferior, due to their narcissistic and selfish qualities, could possibly think they are better than someone such as them, who thinks themself no better than anyone else. When I mention this, break it down, and logically deduce that everyone thinks they are better than everyone else, I have yet to fail to convince someone, or at the very least leave them very confused, but doubting their previous position. I would be very interested to hear an almost-psychologist's point-of-view on the argument, and subject, as well as those of my friends here, who now know I think I am better than all of them. ;)
Thoughts?
Reality corrupts. (That should be a bumper sticker, if we had cars ;) )
Indeed. I think I'll put it on my bike.
Everyone thinks they are better than everyone else.
I dare say not everybody feels him/herself better than everybody else. Some people have such a bad self image, that everyone else is perceived to be better than them (think, for an incomplete example, about anorexics). However, they might not admit to such a thing.
It seems most (if not all) of us seem to be convinced we are better than others, when having a discussion. Determined to make our point, which we believe is right, we tend to think in us-versus-them categories, where "us" are better than "them". Hence, "I" am better than "you".
Unlikely as it objectively is, we have a higher value of ourselves in general when thinking (consciously or otherwise) in groups. It takes a lot of conscious struggle to get rid of that, and I'm not sure it'll pay off as having a better life. Forever feeling that everyone else is better than you is both psychologically damaging and practically impossible.
Okay, I admit. I feel better than you. But only a little. :)
Anorexics think it too.
Not eating makes them feel all superior-like, compared to the weaklings that must consume calories every day.
Well, this discussion has certainly taken an interesting turn since I was able to get in on it last... ;)
Vic, I don't agree at all that everyone thinks they are better than everyone else. Yes, there are absolutely those who think that way (including you, obviously...). ;) However, to say that everyone believes that is a huge generalization and just makes no sense.
For example, I don't think of myself as better than everyone by any stretch of the imagination. I believe that I am better than some people at some things, but I also know that there are always other people out there who are better than I am at those things. I think I am better than some people overall, but the people I think that of are those who have proven themselves to be wastrels or lazy or one with no drive or ambition to accomplist anything at all.
I know for a fact that I can't do everything. I will always try, but if I can't do it, I will find someone better who can.
I can't speak for anyone else.
Hansgirl, you know your selfless sense of equality makes you feel just a tad superior, deep down.
Just a little.
Come on, you can say it... ;)
I will say that it ticks me off when I find I am unable to do something. I will also admit to some jealousy as I find people who are able to do things better than I.
Satisfied? ;)
Slightly, yes. ;)
LMAO! :D
Interesting.
Hansgirl, you know your selfless sense of equality makes you feel just a tad superior, deep down.
Hey, I'm equal. Those fools just aren't. ;)
I love, love, love a good religious debate!
Your entry title and the third sentence of your entry are immediately contradictory. "Dead" implies having once been alive. "Does not exist" suggests God was imaginary from the start. Two different things. Sort of like the difference between being an atheist and being an agnostic, eh?
such an allpowerful being would care less about being believed in
Says who? Says you? Are you all-powerful? I sure as hell am NOT!!! :D Us mere mortals should never presume to know what an all-powerful being would care about, especially if one doesn't exist in the first place. We should never assume what anyone else feels...it's a way dangerous (and often wrong) practice.
Unexplainable events such as hansgirl's...why do they have to be explained? Ever? What's wrong with accepting things we can't explain? What's wrong with accepting...anything? Stuff happens in this world that we can never explain, that never makes sense, all the time. Perhaps the lack of explanation, itself, is the proof that there is more going on than meets our human eyes.
I, a cradle Roman Catholic, have been taught that there is a finite amount that we will ever be capable of comprehending. Period. Only God knows it all. Perhaps I am just a big ol' cow :), but that works for me because it makes sense to me. My very strong belief system (and I'm not just talking about religion...I believe in people first) tells me that it would be incredibly arrogant of me to think that I am capable of knowing everything there is to know but that someone should...or does. Otherwise I would have a way to know for certain why some of the things that happen in this life, happen. I don't. Admitting an inability to comprehend everything if we try hard enough might seem like weakness to some, but I see it as strength. Admitting imprefection in any of its forms, is a sign of strength.
As I'm reading the original post and its comments, I have to interject...the only atheists I know are male. Why is that, do you suppose?
However, my point was, where does this god come from? If he is the supposed creator of all, how was he created himself?
That's really the ultimate question, isn't it? The answer to this question would definitely prove or disprove God's existence. It's the one I have the most trouble with. What does In the beginning... really mean?
I would be very interested to hear an almost-psychologist's point-of-view on the argument
Why is that, Vic? Is an almost-psychologist's opinion better than yours? ;P
I agree with you about this, as you know...that everyone thinks they're better than everyone else...but perhaps there's an issue of context to talk about. I agree with you in the context in which we've discussed it, but in the context of this particular discussion, maybe there's a different take. Perhaps. Belief in oneself above all others is, essentially, the ultimate selfishness in the most literal sense. Just maybe this belief is, on a deeper level, a sign of an even more complex feeling of inefficiency which should, ultimately, make belief in a higher power even MORE significant and important....
You know what? I'm starting to talk in circles, and my seven-year-old thinks I'm ignoring her. It's a selfish thought, but since she's seven, I'll allow it.
:)
Yikes...I really was talking in circles earlier. Sorry about that...
Guess I'd better wait to write about deep subjects until I'm alone and can actually think.
Ami, you crack me up! LOL!
I liked what you had to say, though... ya know, before the circle thing... ;)
...the only atheists I know are male. Why is that, do you suppose?
Uh, men are smarter? ;) Womb envy? God is a dude?
Why is that, Vic? Is an almost-psychologist's opinion better than yours? ;P
Hardly, I just wanted to hear what he thought so I could tear him apart if he disagreed with me, or pat him on the back (proverbially)if he did. ;)
Just maybe this belief is, on a deeper level, a sign of an even more complex feeling of inefficiency which should, ultimately, make belief in a higher power even MORE significant and important....
I assume you meant inferiority?
What of this higher power then? It has to be incredibly narcissistic, what with the omnipotence and all.
Thank you, Ami, for visiting my blog! Great points you made, despite the circles. ;)
"Dead" implies having once been alive. "Does not exist" suggests God was imaginary from the start. Two different things.
Artistic license. Overstatement. Catchy. That kind of stuff. Savvy? ;)
Says who? Says you? Are you all-powerful?
I must admit that is the best reply to such an argument I have heard up till now. And you are right, of course. (Though it does not necessarily mean I'm wrong.)
I'll think about this.
Unexplainable events such as hansgirl's...why do they have to be explained? Ever?
Never did I mean everything has to be explained. Rather, I meant that they can be, regardless of whether it will ever happen.
I mean, a wedding, organized for months, can take place during the rain season in the tropics, and happen to be on the only dry day for months. Do I care about explaining it? No. Is it explainable? Yes.
Admitting an inability to comprehend everything if we try hard enough might seem like weakness to some, but I see it as strength. Admitting imprefection in any of its forms, is a sign of strength.
Possibly. But doesn't make religion good - or right.
I have to interject...the only atheists I know are male. Why is that, do you suppose?
Chance. Honestly, it's probably just coincidental since you don't know everyone. And no matter who your friends are, never are they a complete representation of the larger population (yes, that means your friends are not "average"). ;)
I liked what you had to say, though...
Me too. Good points.
Hardly, I just wanted to hear what he thought so I could tear him apart if he disagreed with me, or pat him on the back (proverbially)if he did.
I know. :D
[The Recruit] Everything is a test! [/The Recruit]
I haven't asked many people about their religion, or lack thereof, but I know many friends of mine, male and female, are atheists.
Oh - I see my comment is a bit mixed. Ah well, I'm sure you're intelligent enough to make sense of it. :D
Savvy?
Always ;)
My "Are you all-powerful?" question is the crux of my argument. To assume we know there's no God is to assume we know everything. We don't. We can't. In that sense, atheists are no more "right" than anyone else who claims to "know." Obviously, the flip side of that is the classic Miracle On 34th Street defense...then how do we prove that OUR God is the one, the true, the omnipotent being?
The dry wedding during the rainy season is scientific happenstance. The existence or non-existence of God isn't provable either way. But let's use love for an example, shall we...since you brought it up! :)
There is no way to prove love scientifically. We can keep a running tab of flowers and candy purchased, send out a hearty Ka-CHING every time a husband buys his wife diamonds...hell, we can even monitor a couple's sex life and tally up the number of sex acts a wife performs on her husband, but none of that proves love. (...oops...did I cross a line?... :D )
Yet we know love exists. We all want it. We all know it. But we'll never, ever be able to scientifically prove it.
You're 100% right, Fang. I have the most exceptional friends. I know few of them to be atheists, however....even though they're exceptional.
hansgirl...I loved your story, by the way. :)
Vicomte...It's impossible to circle 'round your circles 'round my circles, but you've brought up a good point by mentioning womb envy. ;)
To assume we know there's no God is to assume we know everything. We don't.
Agreed, god's supposed nonexistence cannot be proven. However, as long as there is no proof of his existence, none of us have to believe it.
I mean, I could claim there is a Bigfoot who's really the mythical Devil, but everyone will ridicule me (until I incidentally prove it), rather than try to disprove it.
On the gender part: why does god have to be male?
There is no way to prove love scientifically.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but there is. It's a chemical in the brain. Chocolate contains a similar chemical.
I see your point, though.
(...oops...did I cross a line?... :D )
There are no lines here. Unless you brought them with you... ;)
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